Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2)

Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2)
by Pete Rock

(Cross posted from Daily Kos)

 I am going to share two items with you, one is my corrected reply to why I am doing what I am doing and extending an invitation (in the unity spirit) for Alegre to come back and post.

It may well be a bit early, but I don't think so. The door is open.  I want those exacerbating the splits among our Democrats to be marginalized or reined in. So that means I don't want yet another list of transgressions and excuses why we can't be allies posted to this . If you can't accept what I am trying to do, or simply don't want to hear it please just say "No" and move on. I heard plenty yesterday. (more)

 I got called a "stalker", or inflicting a dispute people didn't want to hear about also.  So we have 3 parts:
first a roundup of what happened with part  1 and the reception on both sites, and Second, is anna shane's response on behalf of Alegre. Third is my analysis of where we are.

 It seemed many posters simply wanted to jump on Alegre, and follow the bashing diary of "Alegre had a conference call with the HRC Campaign" as if it were some breaking news or vital stuff. My impression was a fair number of commentors never read my diary. They only saw the name Alegre and jumped in both feet, eyes closed and howling. OK, I get it.  You scold me for raising the name and not giving you a laundry list of the latest terrible things she is doing.

  You know what, I don't care about that in the least. I don't care you rec these outbursts and hurt feelings up and up and give yourselves 15 or 25 recs! It doesn't move us one step closer to victory, not one inch closer to a unity REGARDLESS of the 1% chance it is HRC or the 99% chance it is BHO.  It was a waste of your effort to chastize me for trying to do something and offending your Idea Of How Things Are.

That doesn't wash with me.  Over at MyDD, there is a divide there too, and a banter/friction similar to here between the supporters, the most vocal supporters of the two remaining Democratic candidates.  For those not following the saga closely, which would be about 95% of each site, my brief analysis is appended after the comment attached to my cross post which I reproduced.

I meant the apology, or extending a hand.  I commented a few times in threads launched by Alegre on Dkos. I never met her or corresponded outside of the Net postings. I only know her by what she was promulgating before March 14, the date of the strike. That's old news.

 I want to share with you what happened in Part 1 with citizenx, who claimed based on other comments he read on this site that Alegre had gone on O'Reilly and trashed Dkos.

 After he made that comment, and while he was looking for verification, it got uprated 39 times.  That to me is 39 fellow Kossacks wanting to believe the worst about Alegre. They didn't give a fig about my diary, about its "truthiness' or its value. They must have been energized seeing the"Alegre"name and hopped on. Several posters asked for a link. Several others said it never happened, it was BillO lie

 Then citizen x admitted he didn't have one, he read it in some comments and assumed they were true. I responded and told him I would give him 39 recs for being honest and admitting it was wrong.  He got 7 or 9 recs for that too. I learned something, because I believed it sort of, and was kind of nonplused to see it. Did my gesture become  a case as Joy Busey said "Pete, You worry too much!"

  No, don't think so. We have a lot of work to unite and do the things we can do to get our cause across that finish line. I say to anyone who listens, the really hard electoral battle is coming, this faction fight we just had was a warm up only.

  And if we win, or even if we (shudder) don't win the Presidency, there will be a huge fight  starting the day after the election to catch up with the miscreants push the backs of many cautious and cowardly Dems to do things they got to do starting RIGHT AWAY and not waiting for Bush to stroll away to Paraguay on January 5 or 20 or whatever day it is 2009.

OK here is anna shane on Alegre's views as added to my cross post on MyDD.

Charm School (2.00 / 7) (My typo edits, paragraphs)

 The best way to stop smearing Alegre is to stop smearing Hillary. Then you won't even be commenting in most of Alegre's diaries, unless you also have something positive to say about Hillary too.

 If you stick with what you like about Barack and never say anything nasty or personal or dismissive about Hillary, we'll all like you fine, even me.

 If you stop calling people liars for opinions that aren't the same as your own, and if you admit that pretty much half of all voters, however you count it, have voted for her, and that we 're not all deluded low-information racists, but probably have as good of reasons to vote for her as you have for voting for Barack, you probably wouldn't offend anyone.

Alegre, and I, left kos cause we couldn't take the nastiness and jeering directed at our candidate, not because of the nastiness and jeering aimed at ourselves. If we went from very loyal party members who would gladly vote the Dem candidate, to party members who were so pissed off over the abuse we could make no promises, then you might wonder how that transformation took place, and if you and/or your candidate had anything to do with our changed perception of party loyalty.

  If you would avoid defending nastiness by claiming we deserve it, and listing our 'crimes,' that would be a step in the right direction.

  If you would respond to comments without attacking the commenter,  that would be both novel and mature, and would not be way totally depressing. If you don't agree, it would be nicer to admit it rather than to pretend you don't understand and then waste her time explaining before you say, that may be what she says but she's a liar and I don't believe her.

  That tactic lacks so much charm I don't know where to begin.

   The best way to make it up with Alegre is to ignore her diaries if you have nothing to add but jeering dismissive anger, or even magnanimous permission for her to post only 'positive' diaries.

   You could think, when going into a pro-Hillary diary, if you haven't something nice to say, don't say anything. Rest assured any nasty comment that may be itching to be written has already been, over and over. You may notice that Alegre, and I, don't go into pro-Obama diaries at all, much less go in to jeer the diarist and hijack threads. The only pro-Obama dairies we enter are the ones that are based on anti-Hillary memes. Then we go in to say not everyone agrees and this isn't very nice, in the main.

  Barack has noticed an empathy deficit, perhaps some are in need of empathy lessons? He's also said that you can disagree without being disagreeable? That's worth trying? How you do it is you just say, I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that. Or, you don't bother commenting at all, that works too.
                                                (end comment)
Now:

My take : It's been a diary/debating/game here . It gets repetitive. The writers were tagged as being personally responsible for the daily comments out of the HRC campaign. They were conduits, not original authors. We should stop the invective about them.

  The coarsening of the discourse here on site is what happened. With the sides or participants quite unequal in numbers.  Alegre's side lost. She and others left the site, stopped posting diaries and comments here. Alegre was the principal HRC supporter/blogger on this site .

  My analysis is she followed very closely the daily brief of the campaign HQ and spread that message blogging. She didn't write original material except to carry on the political line in tone and phrasing as closely as she could.

  For whatever reason her message "discipline" was amazing, she wouldn't deviate one iota unless the information she got from the campaign changed.

  She stuck to that and resisted any counters or details or refutations. That was both because she trusted the campaign more than any blogger here, and she didn't care to change the message. The point was to elect HRC. Period. Full stop. You can be annoyed or frustrated by her attitude or admire it as I am sure the HRC campaign does. She never gave an inch.

 Alegre and her sisters in the battle are among HRC's strongest and most loyal supporters anywhere. I pointed that out in my diary which a few picked upon. Again this is my view and analysis only.

 Based on that view, I don't agree she is an "enemy" .
In fact I salute her tenacity, if you need a friend
to give you a meal or help you bury the body and not betray your confidences, Alegre is the one.

 Some posters here want to keep on hurling invective towards her. Or say she comes back only with an apology. It's over. She doesn't care.

 She will keep on for her team until they say it's over, you will never force her to quit or beg "forgiveness" which isn't a factor for her.

  Before you think she is an anomaly, a very unusual or atypical HRC supporter you should know she is probably similar to half a million or two million like her. I am serious. I know easily a dozen in my town who don't blog but carry on just like this and they are for Hillary, too. How do you deal with it? with the activist part that won't "be convinced" to change? You don't.

  The situation (the Convention) or the candidate has to say it is over before it is over. Then we can be allies again. She isn't afraid to take an unpopular stand or an outnumbered stand. My definition of a fighter. Maybe down the road.

 My purpose today is to be a genuine Popular Front Democrat.

Right now there are three of us on point: Meteor Blades, TomP and me.  Who is with us?



Display:


Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 2)

I want Alegre BACK.

I didn't agree with everything she said - but hell, that's why I'm on MYDD. An alegre diary was often better than a double expresso for waking me up. Though sometimes I worried about what it was doing to my blood pressure.

Count me in.


The Moose is Loose!
by duende on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:34:06 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 1)

was she banned?  Holy shit.  What have I missed?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:56:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 1)

Bit difficult to tell whether she's REFUSING to post, and whether this calling for her return on DKOS or here. Might have to read the diary again to understand. But she hasn't posted for a couple of days from what I can see.


The Moose is Loose!
by duende on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:57:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The paid blogger left? (1.00 / 1)

Alegre, the paid blogger, left? This website?

This is fantastic news.  Other than the fact that she's paid, and therefore her "opinion" is completely and totally meaningless, these three responses from a different thread sum up my feelings of Alegre The Paid Blogger nicely:

"After listening to the conference call and seeing that there are a number of bloggers simply working for the Clinton campaign and propagating their talking points I have to say that you've lost all credibility with me.This is especially a shock after you pushed an unsubstantiated rumor about 400 so called Obama bloggers.  I always thought people that called you a Clinton shill were simply being mean.  But nope, it's true."

"You see, here's the difference between me and Alegre: I think she works for the campaign, but I have no factual basis for that, only rumors. So I say so up front, just like I did in my post.She, on the other hand, repeats verbatim a completely unsubstantiated smear as if it were fact, and then has the nerve to be self-righteous about it when the admins here have one of their occasional fits of even-handedness and delete the smear from the diary. Then you and others attack Obama supporters for suggesting the same thing she did in her diary.  Pathetic."

"The fact is that she blogs on behalf of the campaign.  She might have blogged on her own because she believes in Senator Clinton.  But, right now she blogs for the campaign and she should disclose that tidbit of information in her diaries.  People constantly question her use of Hillary's website as a source for the majority of her diaries and disclosing that she is blogging oj behalf of the campaign would explain that.  It would also let us know that Alegre is not presenting her opinion for discussion, but being entirely partisan on behalf the candidate she works for.If you phone bank for a candidate you tell the person you're calling who you are, why you're calling and which campaign you're working for.  You don't get on the phone and pretend to be some concerned citizen.Not disclosing that she is actually volunteering on behalf of the campaign when she blogs (and then ask for donations) is entirely dishonest."


by AlexScott on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:38:46 PM EST

Re: The paid blogger left? (2.00 / 1)

She is not a paid blogger. She hasn't left.

She gives the daily message. she doesn't hide that in any way shape or form. She has been doing it for nearly a year.

What is the problem? She won't give you the time of day? She isn't an answer machine she has to go back and prepare again for the next day. she is a volunteer. She isn't a huge pundit or larger than life figure. She is a volunteer. She gives it
away.  I know that is hard to understand for some people.

 what do want out of her?  If you bring a hammer and nails and a cross,  she will probably kick your arse, before you can finish the job .

but you got the first comment in.Congratulations. (eom)


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No Quarter (2.00 / 2)

I used to feel the same way until I saw the had gone to the true darkside, NoQuarter

I'm a supporter of everyone having a voice and using it often but I don't have to respect their choices.  

That choice alone took her over the edge for me.  No here is the funny part, check my diary history.  I heard her on a Clinton confrence call and was impressed with her humanity and posted as much.  

Then later that night I went to no quarter to see that she had provided them with a copy of her official warning from here.  My efforts to see the positive ended there.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:38:50 PM EST

Ah, we're all broken up about that! (none / 0)


by CoyoteCreek on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Quarter (2.00 / 4)

I hate no quarter - what an odious site. But I do blame the tosser who controls it. When it comes to Alegre

1. She claims she wasn't paid. If she used campaign talking points - not the end of the world.

2. I disagreed with a lot of what she said - but dissent is the beating heart of democracy. As long as she remains a democrat she has a right to post on this site.

3. The BIG problem with Alegre's diaries is the way, initially through popular choice, and then by obvious vote rigging, she always made the top of the rec list. If she's happy to continue posting without a fix in place - I think all democrats should welcome it.

4. She will still get criticised. But hey, she can take it. And anyone who posts here should develop a thick skin. I've certainly learned that with much less experience than her.


The Moose is Loose!
by duende on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She works for the campaign. . . (2.00 / 3)

Alegre works, albeit on a volunteer basis, directly for the Clinton campaign.  I couldn't care less what she blogs about, but she should disclose that information when she blogs about politics.  In the vast majority of her diaries she ends with a request for a Clinton campaign donation.  This is a request from the Clinton campaign directly, not from a random concerned citizen.  She should state that in her diaries.


by shalca on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:41:38 PM EST

She's always said (2.00 / 2)

She was a volunteer for the campaign. I am too. I volunteer in every single election, as does Alegre. The witch-hunt  she has had to endure has to do with her choice, not her volunteer efforts.

That conference call was for a number of pro-Hillary bloggers. Jeralyn at TL was on it too. She's not a paid blogger for Hillary either.

That said, I must have missed something. Why is she gone? Was it her choice?


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:59:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's always said (none / 0)

That's an uninformed comment from a sixty second johnny come early. No Alegre "left",this is a cross post from Dkos,sorry if there is confusion. This is part 2. My first part has quite a few comments if you care to check it out. Cripes, this is as bad as DKos the way there is ragging on people.


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:03:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's always said (none / 0)

Thanks, Pete. Yeah, I checked it out. Do you know if she just left or if she declared her intentions somewhere with a link? I've been following her since last year. I think it's ridiculous how she has been treated by paranoid adolescents.


Rules are not necessarily sacred, principles are. - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
by anna belle on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another "random concerned citizen" here (2.00 / 3)

This is a request from the Clinton campaign directly, not from a random concerned citizen.

This is an out right lie!

Alegre is a strong supporter of Hillary - period. It's well known. So am I, and many, many bloggers out there. We all ask for people to support Hillary, donate, etc. So what. I came to the blogs solely to support Hillary. Every post I make - anywhere - is in support of Hillary and her candidacy. Hillary's grassroots and netroots is strong -- evidence of this -- she is still in the f'ing race.


by grlpatriot on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wouldn't call it a lie. . . (none / 0)

If I volunteer to phone bank for the Obama campaign, am I a representative of the Obama campaign or not?  I may agree with my talking points, but I'm a campaign rep.

If I volunteer for the Obama campaign and they give me a list of people to hit up for donations, isn't it a request from the campaign?


by shalca on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:07:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: randomconcernedcitizen (2.00 / 1)

grlpatriot, you won't get minimized by this crew. they don't have the stones.

Best comment so far over here is that people don't want to hear about the feuding between the most outspoken in the two camps, they want to get on with it against warmonger Mr Lobbyist patron Saint  McCain.

Everybody knows you are volunteers and you always ask for help directly for the campaign,not funneled to you. It is purely volunteering. The same as its been for a year.


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:11:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. (none / 0)


by CoyoteCreek on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:43:18 PM EST

Re: No. (none / 0)

Thank you

Pete  


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:19:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (1.00 / 2)

What I think is humorous is that so many people bought into Alegre's paid blogger bullshit for so long.

They were literally replying to, and trying to have a dialogue with, a fucking free advertisement.


by AlexScott on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:44:46 PM EST

Sure, if she gives full disclosure. (none / 0)

Otherwise it's as good as astroturfing.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:45:21 PM EST

My problem isn't the Pro-Hillary stuff... (2.00 / 2)

I think the biggest problem with Alegre hasn't been her Pro-Hillary diaries or her decision to strike.  She can certainly push for her candidate as much as I can push for mine.  Also, DKos at that point had gotten really ugly and what she did was smart and effective in proving her point.  Unfortunately, it made Dkos more of an echochamber which is never good.

The problem as I see it and probably why she has gotten so much heat here is that she began throwing unnecessary and often unpleasant anti-Obama comments into her diaries.  By playing the same ugly game others were playing she dropped to their level and opened herself up to attacks.

I don't agree with those attacks but I also don't believe she should be allowed to bash Obama without having to respond to the inevitable criticism.

I would suggest raising the bar for all diarists to publish thoughtful writing without willfully hurting other candidates and their supporters.  Supporters on this site, both Obama and HRC, are culpable.  Everyone at one point has said something unpleasant.  You can disagree on policies without creating a non-policy divide.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:45:39 PM EST

Alegere was always negative (none / 0)

Sorry but there was no earlier time when Alegre was simply a pro Hillary supporter. She has always taken  any fair criticism of Clinton as a sexist attack. Meanwhile she rationalized racism. Her and her kind claim to their support of Clinton is rooted in Clinton's policies but after her recent post attempting to incite conflict at the convention in Denver it is quite obvious she will be voting for McCain. Who are the cultist.  


by TMP on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

It would help if you indicated that this is cross-posted from DailyKos, as you did in your first post. Maybe even add a link. Secondly this site has a rule against calling out members of the community (DK once did as well but that and most other rules designed to preserve some civility have long since gone by the wayside WRT Clinton supporters), you would be wise to revise your title and diary or delete it. You appear to be new here, so perhaps you are unfamiliar with our conventions.


by souvarine on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:56:55 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 2)

But rather than calling Alegre 'out', I think the diary is calling for her to come 'back'. I think...


The Moose is Loose!
by duende on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 1)

Since alegre hasn't left MyDD I think the diarist is being a little disingenuous. And since the diary has attracted the typical Obama trolls I suspect it has performed its purpose.

Nice to see you 'back', by the way, brit.


by souvarine on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:05:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Oh good. I'm glad she hasn't left. And I hope she doesn't have to find another username because - without warning or explanation - all commenting ability has gone. Brit still exists but despite numerous emails, I can log on but not comment. It's a kind of half ban I suppose, and so I have revert to this name. Call me out for breaking the rules, but since the rules were broken in regard to me, it's kind of fair play I think.


The Moose is Loose!
by duende on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

I think the rules are written to provide thoughtful conversation and limit bs.  I think the diarist is trying to further good conversation and therefore should be given some leniency.

I see it as going 60 in a 55mph zone.  Illegal - yes, the end of the world - no.


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:05:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

I'll take your point in good faith. But on this blog intent has never been an excuse for breaking that particular rule. Traditionally the administrators are not lenient. Deleting diaries like this one, and banning their authors, helps remind people that we, the posters, are not the topic of this blog, candidates and politics are.


by souvarine on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Diarist registered here a week ago? (none / 0)

Look, I'm in favor of uniting behind the candidate selected by the Convention, just as much as anyone else.

But, don't shove this down my throat diarist.

First off, Alegre speaks for herself. She won't be joining you here, since you've just registered here in the past freakin' week!

When the nominee's decided--whenever that is--I'm sure Alegre will have plenty to say. But, she sure as hell won't be dignifying your comments--which promote the concept that the decision's already been made--at this point in time, either.

So, cut the crap. For all intents and purposes, this is just another "Let's throw Hillary under the bus because it's time for her to leave the race" diary, IMHO.

Who the hell are you? If and when it's time for Hillary to get out of the race, that will be a decision made by her. Not by you. Not by me. Not by Barack Obama. And, sure as hell NOT by a bunch of strangers to this community, acting disingenuously in a blog, either.


by bobswern on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:59:58 PM EST

Obama supporters keep driving away women voters (2.00 / 2)

Its a huge problem you need to come to grips with.  


by Betsy McCall on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:02:07 PM EST

I don't understand this view (2.00 / 1)

I am not picking a fight I just honestly don't understand this view.  If you could explain it to me I would be appreciative.

I don't understand why having some assholes on this website who are very anti-hillary would turn you away from Obama.  I think they are unrelated.  I don't believe you should base your decision to vote for or against Obama based on some idiots on the internet.  If the problem was more widespread or if I felt that Obama embraced these tactics, then the story would be different.

Once again, I don't want to fight just to understand.

Thanks


McCain = bad Obama = good
by CAchemist on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More (2.00 / 2)

and more Clinton supporters / Dem women voters are moving to their own closed forums and blogs because the harrassment has become so bad.

IMHO, this trend has its positive side in that its uniting more Dem women and encouraging them to have their own forums to have real discussions about issues. The party has desperately needed for its base of women voters to unite on their own for a long time.


by Betsy McCall on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:05:41 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 1)

Look, Pete. You seem like a nice enough guy/gal. I appreciate your efforts to befriend Alegre. But in all honesty, it feels calculated and contrived (manipulative unity meme). The facts are that Hillary is still in this race and as long as she is we are too. The race will continue until there is a nominee, even if that means to the convention floor. Once the nominee is selected, the unity work can begin. Until then we will continue to volunteer, support, and promote the candidate we feel best able to win the general election and serve as the next President of the United States of America, Hillary Clinton.


by grlpatriot on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:11:37 PM EST

Blog feuds are serious business (none / 0)


by JJE on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:21:01 PM EST

it has to work BOTH ways (none / 0)

from anna shane:

"The best way to stop smearing Alegre is to stop smearing Hillary. Then you won't even be commenting in most of Alegre's diaries, unless you also have something positive to say about Hillary too.

If you stick with what you like about Barack and never say anything nasty or personal or dismissive about Hillary, we'll all like you fine, even me."

so my question is are anna shane and allegre and other Clinton supporters willing to reciprocate? that is:

"The best way to stop fighting is to stop smearing Barack. Then you won't even be commenting in most diaries, unless you also have something positive to say about Barack too.

If you stick with what you like about Hillary and never say anything nasty or personal or dismissive about Barack, we'll all like you fine, even me."

who wants to bet that the Clinton supporters here will do that? if they do, i will.

Obama is the presumptive nominee, but they keep helping the ReThugs by bashing away at him. and then they DEMAND that we turn the other cheek. that's rank hypocrisy.

good try PeteRock, it is a noble (or Nobel?) effort. but you are trying to be reasonable with Clinton supporters who's hatred of Obama has reached ridiculous GOP levels.

but again, if they stop bashing Obama, we will achieve peace in our party.


the time to rise has been engaged.
by catchaz on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:21:33 PM EST


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