Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2)

Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2)
by Pete Rock

 I am going to share two items with you, one is my corrected reply to why I am doing what I am doing and extending an invitation (in the unity spirit) for Alegre to come back and post.

It may well be a bit early, but I don't think so. The door is open.  I want those exacerbating the splits among our Democrats to be marginalized or reined in. So that means I don't want yet another list of transgressions and excuses why we can't be allies posted to this . If you can't accept what I am trying to do, or simply don't want to hear it please just say "No" and move on. I heard plenty yesterday. (more)

 I got called a "stalker", or inflicting a dispute people didn't want to hear about also.  So we have 3 parts:
first a roundup of what happened with part  1 and the reception on both sites, and Second, is anna shane's response on behalf of Alegre. Third is my analysis of where we are.

 It seemed many posters simply wanted to jump on Alegre, and follow the bashing diary of "Alegre had a conference call with the HRC Campaign" as if it were some breaking news or vital stuff. My impression was a fair number of commentors never read my diary. They only saw the name Alegre and jumped in both feet, eyes closed and howling. OK, I get it.  You scold me for raising the name and not giving you a laundry list of the latest terrible things she is doing.

  You know what, I don't care about that in the least. I don't care you rec these outbursts and hurt feelings up and up and give yourselves 15 or 25 recs! It doesn't move us one step closer to victory, not one inch closer to a unity REGARDLESS of the 1% chance it is HRC or the 99% chance it is BHO.  It was a waste of your effort to chastize me for trying to do something and offending your Idea Of How Things Are.

That doesn't wash with me.  Over at MyDD, there is a divide there too, and a banter/friction similar to here between the supporters, the most vocal supporters of the two remaining Democratic candidates.  For those not following the saga closely, which would be about 95% of each site, my brief analysis is appended after the comment attached to my cross post which I reproduced.

I meant the apology, or extending a hand.  I commented a few times in threads launched by Alegre on Dkos. I never met her or corresponded outside of the Net postings. I only know her by what she was promulgating before March 14, the date of the strike. That's old news.

 I want to share with you what happened in Part 1 with citizenx, who claimed based on other comments he read on this site that Alegre had gone on O'Reilly and trashed Dkos.

 After he made that comment, and while he was looking for verification, it got uprated 39 times.  That to me is 39 fellow Kossacks wanting to believe the worst about Alegre. They didn't give a fig about my diary, about its "truthiness' or its value. They must have been energized seeing the"Alegre"name and hopped on. Several posters asked for a link. Several others said it never happened, it was BillO lie

 Then citizen x admitted he didn't have one, he read it in some comments and assumed they were true. I responded and told him I would give him 39 recs for being honest and admitting it was wrong.  He got 7 or 9 recs for that too. I learned something, because I believed it sort of, and was kind of nonplused to see it. Did my gesture become  a case as Joy Busey said "Pete, You worry too much!"

  No, don't think so. We have a lot of work to unite and do the things we can do to get our cause across that finish line. I say to anyone who listens, the really hard electoral battle is coming, this faction fight we just had was a warm up only.

  And if we win, or even if we (shudder) don't win the Presidency, there will be a huge fight  starting the day after the election to catch up with the miscreants push the backs of many cautious and cowardly Dems to do things they got to do starting RIGHT AWAY and not waiting for Bush to stroll away to Paraguay on January 5 or 20 or whatever day it is 2009.

OK here is anna shane on Alegre's views as added to my cross post on MyDD.

Charm School (2.00 / 7) (My typo edits, paragraphs)

 The best way to stop smearing Alegre is to stop smearing Hillary. Then you won't even be commenting in most of Alegre's diaries, unless you also have something positive to say about Hillary too.

 If you stick with what you like about Barack and never say anything nasty or personal or dismissive about Hillary, we'll all like you fine, even me.

 If you stop calling people liars for opinions that aren't the same as your own, and if you admit that pretty much half of all voters, however you count it, have voted for her, and that we 're not all deluded low-information racists, but probably have as good of reasons to vote for her as you have for voting for Barack, you probably wouldn't offend anyone.

Alegre, and I, left kos cause we couldn't take the nastiness and jeering directed at our candidate, not because of the nastiness and jeering aimed at ourselves. If we went from very loyal party members who would gladly vote the Dem candidate, to party members who were so pissed off over the abuse we could make no promises, then you might wonder how that transformation took place, and if you and/or your candidate had anything to do with our changed perception of party loyalty.

  If you would avoid defending nastiness by claiming we deserve it, and listing our 'crimes,' that would be a step in the right direction.

  If you would respond to comments without attacking the commenter,  that would be both novel and mature, and would not be way totally depressing. If you don't agree, it would be nicer to admit it rather than to pretend you don't understand and then waste her time explaining before you say, that may be what she says but she's a liar and I don't believe her.

  That tactic lacks so much charm I don't know where to begin.

   The best way to make it up with Alegre is to ignore her diaries if you have nothing to add but jeering dismissive anger, or even magnanimous permission for her to post only 'positive' diaries.

   You could think, when going into a pro-Hillary diary, if you haven't something nice to say, don't say anything. Rest assured any nasty comment that may be itching to be written has already been, over and over. You may notice that Alegre, and I, don't go into pro-Obama diaries at all, much less go in to jeer the diarist and hijack threads. The only pro-Obama dairies we enter are the ones that are based on anti-Hillary memes. Then we go in to say not everyone agrees and this isn't very nice, in the main.

  Barack has noticed an empathy deficit, perhaps some are in need of empathy lessons? He's also said that you can disagree without being disagreeable? That's worth trying? How you do it is you just say, I respectfully disagree, and leave it at that. Or, you don't bother commenting at all, that works too.
                                                (end comment)
Now:

My take : It's been a diary/debating/game here . It gets repetitive. The writers were tagged as being personally responsible for the daily comments out of the HRC campaign. They were conduits, not original authors. We should stop the invective about them.

  The coarsening of the discourse here on site is what happened. With the sides or participants quite unequal in numbers.  Alegre's side lost. She and others left the site, stopped posting diaries and comments here. Alegre was the principal HRC supporter/blogger on this site .

  My analysis is she followed very closely the daily brief of the campaign HQ and spread that message blogging. She didn't write original material except to carry on the political line in tone and phrasing as closely as she could.

  For whatever reason her message "discipline" was amazing, she wouldn't deviate one iota unless the information she got from the campaign changed.

  She stuck to that and resisted any counters or details or refutations. That was both because she trusted the campaign more than any blogger here, and she didn't care to change the message. The point was to elect HRC. Period. Full stop. You can be annoyed or frustrated by her attitude or admire it as I am sure the HRC campaign does. She never gave an inch.

 Alegre and her sisters in the battle are among HRC's strongest and most loyal supporters anywhere. I pointed that out in my diary which a few picked upon. Again this is my view and analysis only.

 Based on that view, I don't agree she is an "enemy" .
In fact I salute her tenacity, if you need a friend
to give you a meal or help you bury the body and not betray your confidences, Alegre is the one.

 Some posters here want to keep on hurling invective towards her. Or say she comes back only with an apology. It's over. She doesn't care.

 She will keep on for her team until they say it's over, you will never force her to quit or beg "forgiveness" which isn't a factor for her.

  Before you think she is an anomaly, a very unusual or atypical HRC supporter you should know she is probably similar to half a million or two million like her. I am serious. I know easily a dozen in my town who don't blog but carry on just like this and they are for Hillary, too. How do you deal with it? with the activist part that won't "be convinced" to change? You don't.

  The situation (the Convention) or the candidate has to say it is over before it is over. Then we can be allies again. She isn't afraid to take an unpopular stand or an outnumbered stand. My definition of a fighter. Maybe down the road.

 My purpose today is to be a genuine Popular Front Democrat.

Right now there are three of us on point: Meteor Blades, TomP and me.  Who is with us?



Display:


Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Nice post.

To be clear, Alegre didn't leave MyDD , right?


by Falsehood on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:16:30 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (1.00 / 1)

Maybe her paycheck from Hillary.com bounced...


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:33:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Right I forgot to put the notice this was a cross posting from DailyKos and that label will be up shortly.

In case people don't get the reference, I am asking for a "Popular Front" which refers to the 1936 coalition of all political persuasions that defended democracy in Spain aginst the first efforts of the German Third reich and its new weapons and ambitions.  The Lincoln Brigade, Papa Hemingway and St Exupery and George Orwell are some well known participants: no "appeasers"among those guys!


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

You did this diary once and it was lame. What's the purpose of writing another? We get your point. Move on.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:17:28 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

ego?


by gil44 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:45:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Sorry, this was a duplicate, inadvertent posting


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:20:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Maybe a better plan would be for the diary to stay here, and you move on.  It would be so much easier....


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:39:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Zzzzzzzzz...

wake me up when this is over.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

great diary.  Some people are just spoilsports.


by colebiancardi on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:18:20 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Why post the same diary twice in a day.


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:37:16 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Did the first one get deleted?


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:52:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

busting on citizen x, eh? (none / 0)

You just got on my list, buddy.


"I hope the two wings of the Democratic Party may flap together." - William Jennings Bryan
by pinche tejano on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:57:42 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 2)

When hell freezes over.  That is when we will all be going back to DKos to comment or write, and I believe I speak for Alegre.  You must be kidding asking people to go back there to be abused and trolled.  You have got to be kidding.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:16:21 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

It's a big internet...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:36:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 1)

Your point?


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:37:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

That whether or not you go back to Kos is entirely up to you...  I think you will missing out on some good diaries regarding down-ticket races, but it's a big internet... I'm sure you can find the info elsewhere...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Hopefully, we can find some of it here.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (1.00 / 1)

"Many Obama voters ignored other Texas primary races"

"Obama supporters were more likely to vote in the presidential race and then skip the other contests than Clinton supporters, who tended to continue voting down the ballot, a Dallas Morning News analysis finds."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/ dws/news/politics/topstories/stories/030 908dnpoldemvoters.3a5249f.html


by mcctx on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (1.50 / 2)

TR'd for threadjacking. Write a diary or put it in an open thread.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:07:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Why did you tr this statement when I was responding to the statement above regarding down ticket voting!

"I think you will missing out on some good diaries regarding down-ticket races, but it's a big internet... I'm sure you can find the info elsewhere..."


by mcctx on Mon May 19, 2008 at 12:07:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Yes I am asking. No,I am not kidding. and I get that skeptical "hell freezes over" reaction  a fair amount.

 It may not be the end of the world if it doesn't happen, but I am after a less superheated, more sober kind of place with rivalry, sure but not flat out antagonism to the death. Nobody sane wants that, or can function that way  permanently.

I believe the first real step to get there is to just let it (hurts) go. It isn't something that will happen tomorrow or next week but it will happen, eventually I think. Anybody who wants to succeed in politics as in any other endeavor has to learn to move on and let go and not look for payback and recovering everything lost. That's not realistic.

 We are in some uncharted territory here. I am not totally invested in a star system or any one leader is the answer exclusively,although timing makes it look that way sometimes.

 We absolutely,urgently need to get democrats to close in,to do whatever constitutes the best effort at winning soundly and convincingly this November. And you know that Re thug crowd will be desperate to avoid being thrown out and into the real courts and tribunals. So all matter, all activists are so vital to get engaged. In the same fight, not against each other.


by PeteRock on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:38:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

You don't understand.  None of us have any desire to go there.  None.  Nada.  There is no reason why we would.  As far as Alegre,  She has said that she will go back only if Markos posts a front page diary in his own name apologizing to Hillary and apologizing to Hillary supporters for the way he enabled what occured on his blog, and in fact blatantly participated in.  That is it.  That is the answer.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed. (2.00 / 1)

I was called Republican troll and Lieberman clone because I supported Hillary.  As an example, on the last diary I wrote, a commenter wrote "F*#& YOU, Republican troll!" and left over thirty comments calling me a liar and attacking anyone else sympathetic to me.  

But I'm a high school teacher.  I can handle that.  What really pisses me off about the big orange monster whose name we dare not speak was when a front page diarists (whose name bares a resemblance to the blogs name) wrote a diary accusing Hillary of darkening an image of Obama in an advertisement.  I'm not going back there until he apologizes.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Mon May 19, 2008 at 04:17:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Seconding Scotch (2.00 / 2)

I'd already mostly withdrawn from Kos after the Pie Wars. That place has always had a strong undercurrent of misogyny. The moderators barely take responsibility for a lot of the crap that is posted and I don't see any reason to further enable them.

I've crossed a lot of sites of my list. I will occasionally look at HuffPo if someone links to an interesting article, but read the comments? No way. It's like packs of hyenas on bad acid.


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:26:14 PM EST

Re: Seconding Scotch (none / 0)

I have never noticed the "strong undercurrent of misogyny" on DKos...

Of course, I wasn't looking for it either...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:37:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seconding Scotch (2.00 / 2)

Or you wouldn't know it if it ran you over.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:43:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seconding Scotch (2.00 / 1)

Okay...  what the living whatever is up with some of you tonight?

Did I miss a particularly nasty diary or something?

Yes, I do know misogyny when I see it...  curiously, I just used the word in a comment of my own when the commenter I was replying to actually used the "you don't like porn because you're ugly" line.  Oddly enough, it was a Clinton supporter.


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:03:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seconding Scotch (none / 0)

Sorry, but there seems to be so much denial of sexism among younger bloggers, and I don't know your age, that it is worrisome to me that we are heading backwards at a fast pace.  Many younger people came of age when everything was there for them, abortion rights, equality or at least more equality in hiring and on and on, that they have no idea what went on before them to bring them to that place. They don't understand the basics of how language contributes to keeping repressed people, including women down.   If you didn't go into the campaign diaries at DKos, maybe you didn't see the mysogynistic references to Clinton which sometimes was just outright calling her a whore, and other names, claims that she was just the wife of someone and had no accomplishments of her own, etc.  DKos has always had a problem with mysogony in one form or another, and it was much more than it is here.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:35:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seconding Scotch (none / 0)

I did take offense at your wording that maybe you weren't looking for it.  That insinuates that Lisa is being trivial and picky.  That is rather insulting.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You missed the Pie Wars? (none / 0)

Wondering what your user number is...maybe this was before your time?


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You missed the Pie Wars? (none / 0)

I may have missed the pie wars... but I also did not read many of the primary diaries either... I read FISA stuff and down-ticket races, and really, anything non-primary related...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:06:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You missed the Pie Wars? (none / 0)

Wise of you. The Pie Wars was...2003 IIRC. It exposed a very ugly side to the site. A lot of people (men and women) left or reduced their activities as a consequence.


by OtherLisa on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:08:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You missed the Pie Wars? (none / 0)

Ah....  I was a lurker at that point, but only read diaries, not comments...  and didn't post at all...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:16:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You missed the Pie Wars? (none / 0)

I think maybe they were in 2005, since I joined in 2004 and they were after me.  That was the first time it hit me that many Democrats were very much the same as Republicans, and I couldn't figure out what exactly why they were democrats if they didn't stand for our basic values like equality and respect for women.  Including the fearless leader, Marcos.  Some of the nastiest sexist comments I have ever seen made their appearance then.


by Scotch on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Seconding Scotch (none / 0)

Until she drops out, "misogyny" is a synonym for "not supporting Our Girl" here.  Weird, but whatever...


Can't rec or rate -- next username, please!
by neeborMolgula on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

classic. (none / 0)

"t's like packs of hyenas on bad acid."

lol


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 3)

Amen, Scotch.  

The diarist may mean well but as late as today they are bashing Hillary and us, even using hip-hop telling her "to get her head out of her ass and fall back."

They've accused Alegre of helping O'Reilly, going so far as to claim she went on his show.  They've called her immoral and allowed that she could only come back if she made ammends and apologized.  And for what?  For supporting Hillary and telling stories of what Hillary's plans would mean to her and her family and millions like them?

Screw them.  When they say Alegre they are talking about all of us.  We are Alegre.  When they trash Hillary they trash all of us.  We are Hillary.

So give it up and go away.

p.s,  What's this "sisters" crap.  Half of Hillary's bloggers are men.  We are sisters and brothers and we cannot be bamboozed.

 


by Tolstoy on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:39:35 PM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Zzzzzzzzz.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (1.00 / 4)

Go back to KOS, troll.


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:11:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Okay...  all of you are not Alegre..  I understand solidarity and all, but that is a little far...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:04:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

And they say we are a cult


by Builderman on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:27:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (2.00 / 1)

so who's zombie are you? this account seems to have been created only to TR HRC supporters, 3 comments and dozens of TR's


by zerosumgame on Sun May 25, 2008 at 01:47:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

I couldn't care less about Alegra.  If she continues to shill outrageously I dare say she will continue to be mocked.  Why anyone would care about whether she goes back to DK or not is totally beyond me - she is not some metaphor for party unity.  She is a deadender who will be totally irrelevant in about 3 days time.  


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:12:51 AM EST

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (1.00 / 2)

She's got more guts and insight than you will ever have, kid.


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Stop hitting our diarists (Alegre Part 2) (none / 0)

Kid - that's funny. Haven't been called that for at least 30 years.  Funny how you presume to know anything about me.


by interestedbystander on Mon May 19, 2008 at 01:55:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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