Look out! Here comes the Bus!

Jim Johnson just stepped down....Just heard about it.

WASHINGTON - A manager of Democrat Barack Obama's vice presidential search team resigned Wednesday amid criticism over his personal loan deals. "Jim did not want to distract in any way from the very important task of gathering information about my vice presidential nominee, so he has made a decision to step aside that I accept," Obama said in a statement. "We have a very good selection process under way, and I am confident that it will produce a number of highly qualified candidates for me to choose from in the weeks ahead. I remain grateful to Jim for his service and his efforts in this process."


Display:


This is a diary? (2.00 / 1)


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:03:04 PM EST

No (2.00 / 5)

This is a trite little poorly disguised hit piece, the bus meaning Obama throwing someone under it, against OUR DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE.

SHE LOST.  GET THE FUCK OVER IT ALREADY.  Go for a walk, take yoga, do something productive for god's sake.  


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:04:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (1.75 / 4)

Did I mention "she?" This is about Jim Johnson. I wrote a diary on this issue yesterday.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:07:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (1.83 / 6)

The bus comment was out of line.  You're so transparent it's as if your parents were glass makers.  


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:08:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 1)

You're so transparent
What's transparent is that Obama realized that keeping Johnson on was getting in the way of his change message.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:18:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 0)

Did Johnson step down or was he fired?

Everything I've seen is that he stepped down. If you have some insider information, please share.


by TCQuad on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, then commenting on that diary (none / 0)

would seem more in line with the whole concept of a "diary".  This is even short for a comment...


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:09:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 2)

You aren't fooling anyone.  It is a bit insulting that you think we are stupid enough to believe you are sincere.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:09:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 1)

I don't think you're stupid, I think you're sensitive. Although I don't care for Obama, I admit that he is running a good campaign and IMO, this is a smart move. Many here thought that Obama should stand his ground on this issue....It would remained on the front burner if he didn't take care of the problem.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:43:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 1)

When it comes to "democrats" trashing our own nominee I am a bit sensitive.  The only reason for you to use the "thrown under the bus" metaphor was to make this episode look worse than it is.   I refuse to believe you didn't understand how that metaphor would come across on a blog dedicated to electing Democrats.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 2)

Sorry, but I've been a Democrat for a very long time and walking in lockstep "for the sake of the party" is what Republicans do best. I have my opinion and I'm going to express it. Johnson was a problem; now the problem is gone.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (none / 0)

And the bus reference referred to what exactly?


by Same As It Ever Was on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (1.71 / 7)

just outright the wrong attitude. Stop YELLING at people to do what you tell them. If you think that there will be no critique of Obama just because he's the nominee - well that alone reveals something about how much experience you have in the DEM party.  Granted bashing for bashing's sake is off limits in my opinion. But this appointment of Johnson was just plain wrong on so many levels. Critique is critical to keep our candidate in line and make sure he follows through on all his promises. you want a cheerleading choir - you might not be in the right party.


by swissffun on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:25:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No (2.00 / 4)

Please don't do that.

I know diaries like this piss a lot of people off, but don't scream "get the fuck over it." A lot of us, who will support Obama in every way possible, aren't completely over Hillary's loss. (It took me a long time to get over Dean, too.) Expressing your outrage is perfectly fine, but surely the harshness isn't necessary.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's breaking news... (2.00 / 1)


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:03:46 PM EST

Re: It's breaking news... (2.00 / 3)

I think you probably need  new box of kleenex after that breaking news.

Don't chafe yourself, the days of pain are never worth it.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:07:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's breaking news... (2.00 / 1)

here are your reasons to vote for mccain soyousay, no reason to hide your feelings anymore:

However, should you decide that you want to stop taking pissy little potshots at the nominee because your feelings are hurt, that would be swell.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

Here is an article if you want to update:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_o n_el_pr/obama_veepstakes


by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:04:33 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

Thanks.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:06:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is Penn Available? n/t (2.00 / 1)


by parahammer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:05:33 PM EST

Re: Is Penn Available? n/t (none / 0)

Yeah, but he's asking for payment up front this time.

*ducks*


by TCQuad on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:57:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Delete this or rewrite it to add a link.  You just knocked someone's diary off the front page in order to post a 13 word comment.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:05:38 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 5)

Sorry, no bus. He stepped  down because he felt he was becoming a distraction.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0 608/Johnson_resigns.html#comments


Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
by jsfox on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:05:40 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

THANK YOU.


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (1.66 / 3)

Maybe the bus showed up late at night when no one was around.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:13:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lucky you! (none / 0)

Campweasel is skulking around giving you mojo.  


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:19:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Don't quit your day job.


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:19:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

soyousay, I wonder how you can look in the mirror and support McCain.

You're probably also one of the 20% who still think Bush is doing a heckuva job.


by JoeW on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (1.57 / 7)

Almost wet your pants there eh soyousay?


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:07:57 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 2)

Well it was cool. In the diary I wrote yesterday, I stated that Johnson should step down....so, there ya go! :D


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:12:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (1.25 / 4)

So you DID wet your pants.

Sick.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

Heh...You're a comedian and you don't even know it.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:21:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (1.00 / 1)

I may be the comedian but you're the joke.


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:25:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Good one! touche! :D


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Looks like (1.44 / 9)

Campweasel is out and about for TR abuse and teh stoopid support.  


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:21:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Looks like (none / 0)

Who would you have to "throw under the bus" if it wasn't for me?


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:23:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Um, (none / 0)

1.  I have no frigging clue what you mean; and

2.  "throw under the bus" is so 20th century that it rates right up there with "groovy" as annoying.

Your self-importance is underwhelming.


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:29:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yayyyy! (2.00 / 1)

Now swissfun is outed as a campweasel devotee.  Must be really sad to be the underling of an underling.


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:31:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

This is not a diary, and the information is posted elsewhere.  Have a nice day!


by NewOaklandDem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:09:41 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

I updated it. Thanks. You have a nice day too.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:11:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow! (none / 0)

Your update is astonishingly substantive -- must have taken you hours of personal reflection.


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 2)

Well darn it.  I thought this was going to be a diary about Jerome Bettis campaigning for Obama.


by katpee on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:11:17 PM EST

Wow. (2.00 / 1)

There's even an Open Thread where you can be mocked for a non-substantive comment.


by gchaucer2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:12:31 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 3)

My support of HRC is well documented and i would perfer her to BO but that aside i think this is nonsense and looks like some kind of ideological purity.  And i think this is STUPID.  And IMHO the netroots is making it worse.  Jim Johnson is a democrat and if he helped Walmart who gives a shit.  Big business is not the devil.

Some times i think the democratic party is starting to act like republicans.  If you do "ONE" thing that doesnt fit with some specific agenda than you cant be part of the party.  Democrats should be the party of everyone and different ideas should be welcomed but lately it seems like some kind of ideological limtus test.

david


by giusd on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:13:00 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

"Big business is not the devil."  

Wow, I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with you on anything.


by XoFalconXo on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

I am surprised I guess.  IMO if I were Jim Johnson I would have stepped down because I wouldn't appreciate the press crawling all over me and causing me and my family any embarrassment.


by JustJennifer on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:14:19 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Yeah, is the assumption always that the person is fired? Sometimes a resignation is really just a resignation.


by patooker on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:36:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice freeper cheapshot in your title (2.00 / 2)

Just a matter of time before you get banned


by johnnyappleseed on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:15:34 PM EST

Re: Nice freeper cheapshot in your title (none / 0)

MyddObama hasn't been created yet.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So... (none / 0)

Barack Obama is not a Democrat?

That's the only way he wouldn't be relevant or prominent on a Democratic blog.


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So... (2.00 / 1)

Absolutely! Obama is a Democrat. I just don't think he'll make a good president. That doesn't mean that I won't support the Democratic Party in other ways.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:30:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What other ways (2.00 / 1)

have you helped the Democratic Party? Every diary you've written here is a negative one about Obama.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:34:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What other ways (2.00 / 1)

I've helped the party for many years. I supported them financially in 2006. I held my nose and supported Kerry through my vote and financially. I think they forgot about people like me though. I'm hoping that they'll stop disappointing me soon.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:52:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Soyousay, you said this; (2.00 / 1)

or, knowing you (2.00 / 1)

you'll complain he waited until it became a political issue before he got rid of him...point out that he's just like any politician, then find the next thing to complain about.

by nrafter530 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:31:44 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

   Nope (none / 0)

   I consider that a smart move. Obama's campaign is pretty good at nicking problems.

   by soyousay on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:34:44 PM EST
    [ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Keep your word. You said you'd consider it a smart move.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:21:53 PM EST

Re: Soyousay, you said this; (none / 0)

I do consider it a smart move. This was more of a "I told you so" Diary. :D

Yesterday, I stated that Johnson should go. Obama knows the quicker the better. I must admit, his campaign is doing a good job.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:33:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 2)

"Throwing under the bus" is now the metaphor of choice for the anti-Obama folks who want to mischaracterize every resignation, criticism, or staff change made by the Obama campaign as some kind of character flaw, and use them to attack him unfairly.

Typical of trolls, the act is already tiresome, and yet they continue to use it as if they've just coined a wonderful new expression.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:23:12 PM EST

Have some fun (2.00 / 1)

He is getting better at sacking people who harm him politically. He is showing progress.

He is strong enough for us to have a few laughs.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:23:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Have some fun (none / 0)

What is funny about it?


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:25:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wish Hillary had learned the same lesson (2.00 / 1)

She should have sacked Penn 3 months earlier.  Don't you agree?


by Regenman on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Really? Mydd in general, uses it all the time.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

It's an overused and much-abused metaphor which has lost any meaning it may have once had.

Now, it's used every and any time someone is disavowed, or distanced from, or criticized, or reassigned, or contradicted, or looked at the wrong way.

Any context or subtlety is lost, and every instance, regardless of difference, is equated with every other.

Seems to me that political neophytes like using the expression, because it makes them sound like insiders, just like the ones they see on the TV.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:39:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's bus needs a name (2.00 / 2)

McCain has the Straight Talk Express.

Come on guys, have some fun with this. It's the Dem's year, he will win. And he's getting better at sacking people who harm him politically. He's showing progress.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:23:14 PM EST

Re: Obama's bus needs a name (2.00 / 1)

He's been quick all along to remove distractions from his campaign.

He knows how the game is played in Washington, and how every utterance and association is trumpeted for the purposes of political destruction.

Powers was gone in a day, for example, and others who've said stupid or unnecessary things have been either shown the door or instructed to shut up. (Someone like his former pastor was a more complex issue, as much as the media and Obama's detractors tried to over-simplify it.)

Obama has kept his priorities straight, and his eyes relentlessly on the prize. He's demonstrated that he's not going to dig in his heels except on matters of principle. In terms of procedure, he's flexible, and doesn't have the "loyalty" obsessions that are a hallmark in Washington.

If someone is getting in the way of his message, they're not going to stay around. And frankly, I suspect he doesn't even have to ask, and that his people are the first to offer to leave (as Powers did) as soon as they realize the liability.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:35:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (1.75 / 4)

I thought this wasn't a story, according to some of the pro-Obama commenters?

He had to go.  The question is -- why did Obama pick a guy who was an enabler for the outrageous CEO compensation packages Obama is supposedly against, and who is someone that had what seems to be unsavory dealings with the mortgage industry?

I guess nowadays it's better to be on the Clinton's enemies list than to be one of Obama's close advsers.

Good diary.

Sometimes, idols just have feet of clay, ya know?


by vasoccermom on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:25:10 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Actually it was a great move. This is history now.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:26:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 2)

Not exactly it's a ding in his bodywork. If you're running for president you can't have to many or it looks like your an idiot. Why won't you Obama fans get real for once. It's not fatal but it was a dumb move and we don't want any more of them. Ok.


by ottovbvs on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Heh...You sure read me wrong. Notice the troll accusations lobbed my way? :D


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:31:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

Good diary?

If you think this is a good diary then your opinion of Obama just got discounted quite a bit.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

Re: VP advisor needs to go (2.00 / 1)

If Obama gets rid of Johnson, you'll be praising him for doing so....and so will I. :D

by soyousay on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:24:33 PM EST

Then I responded;

or, knowing you (2.00 / 1)

you'll complain he waited until it became a political issue before he got rid of him...point out that he's just like any politician, then find the next thing to complain about.

The Democratic Party doesn't live or die with the Clintons
by nrafter530 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:31:44 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

then diarist responded;

Nope (none / 0)

I consider that a smart move. Obama's campaign is pretty good at nicking problems.

by soyousay on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:34:44 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]

Where's the praise soyousay?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:27:07 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

Right here in this diary; I said it was a smart move to do this.
 
by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:02:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Howard Fineman threw Obama under the bus! (2.00 / 3)

He was on MSNBC and criticized Obama for having a
"tin ear" and acting against his message of change. He also criticized Obama supporters for "taking McCain out of context".

Don't ever assume that MSNBC is always going to be an Obama friendly network!


You may not agree with What I say but don't forget I am a Democrat
by indydem99 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:33:11 PM EST

Oh noes! (2.00 / 1)

Howard Fineman said something bad!

I wont ever watch the network again!


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

What a tired metaphor that is.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:02:56 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

I think MSNBC came up with that one.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No they didn't (2.00 / 1)

the under the bus cliche is several years old at least.


by JJE on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No they didn't (none / 0)

MSNBC uses it a lot.


by soyousay on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:24:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

There is zero Jerome Bettis in this diary.  I demand a title change.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 04:55:22 PM EST

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:01:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (2.00 / 1)

Even as a Broncos fan, I think da' BUS is da' MAN.

He's old school.


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:55:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look out! Here comes the Bus! (none / 0)

"Jim Johnson just stepped down....Just heard about it."

Excellent contribution to the world of intellectual thought.

Bravo!


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 05:53:43 PM EST


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